There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. @ dee: Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. Lin wrote: Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. I will post about this. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. Jesus wept. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) This reminds me of what the guy in the videos (Refuting Calvinism video series) was saying in one video. It usually starts out with something like this. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. I find that to be an amazing God thing. CALVIN!, The Bible? Nicholas what a great link. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. ++++++++++++++++. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. This would definitely color their opinion. I know. List of non-calvinist denominations? : r/Christianity - reddit It was populated by extremely insecure . God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. If this is so, its really astounding. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . The Problem with Calvinism is Fundamentalism | Roger E. Olson Baptist Commentaries: 100 Well-Reviewed Volumes @ Julie Anne: This short paper contains a list of common-sense and biblical arguments and counter-arguments against Calvinism and predestination. Joel B. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. But these things do not happen independently of God. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). Our sinful human nature craves it. The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. * Okay, end of sermon. I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see 10 Books (and One Letter) Every New Calvinist Needs to Read By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. Feels your pain with you. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. We are. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. Systematic theology books are plentiful. Carson Tim Challies Francis Chan (commonly referred to as "Calvinist Light") Matt Chandler Vincent Cheung Ray Comfort Tim Conway Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Mark Driscoll Ligon Duncan Im glad I know that now. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God . Julie Anne: They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. And later, mamas milkexactly what they need at the precise time they need it., Nick: Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need.. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. Wondering What Denominations Are Calvinist? Here's the Answer I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. And as you say, Nick, as soon as we have settled out of shock, we need robust physiotherapy which is psychotherapy or intensive spiritual counseling, and thats hard long work; not a job for babies. Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. I can't get thereeither on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried). Wow! Might we call what youre describing love? Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Here's the list showing the long line of Calvinistic SBC presidents Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. Bring them to heaven? The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. @ Steve D: But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? TWW received a comment from one of our nice Calvinist readers. It seems to me that JeffS and Craig (over at SSB) understand that point and are processing it beautifully. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. 1 Cor. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. But something has changed in the last number of years. @ Daisy: Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. Non-Calvinist Theologians (resurrected thread) - Baptist Christian Forums You're a Calvinist, Right? - The Gospel Coalition Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. They are letting someone else handle driving. Yes! It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. Why did he care so much about what the Bible said? Does not compute. Alexander Maclaren 15. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. @ Bridget: Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. I think many. Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. In practice its a bit like saying Catholicism in the latter youve got everything from evangelical Catholics through liberation theologians and the very conservative ones who want to go back to Latin masses and pre-Vatican II. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. Thank you, Deb. (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. Reformed Theology, Rooted in the Bible. Thank you for helping me out. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language)
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